Not quite sure why tons of my Chinese friends celebrate Christmas as they asked me what I did in the ‘holiday’ (wish I had it). But now I have an answer for that. Much of it was unpleasant 🙁 Just few days back, the ‘organ harvesting’ issue emerged in last summer vacation sparked condemnations again. In the 90s IDF was said to have derived organs(mostly cornea) from Palestinian dead body without permissions from their families. As I regularly keep a stack open of tweets stream with keyword ‘Israel’, I saw one tweet from Shanghai read he wasn’t shocked at all by the news. Then the bitter conversation began and lasted for three days or so.
milandroid: It should be. But I WAS shocked by that. IDF should have been a moral army
peijinc: moral army is almost an oxymoron to me. war touches too much the daimonic, but conventions/laws are products of rationality #fb
milandroid: ye, war is in no way good. But relatively, moral army doesnt target civilian, doesnt, in this case, use organs w/out permission.
and I don’t see any other way to fight back terrorists. Operations are response to their brutal action against #israeli civilians.
peijinc: well no one wants to be the first to lay down weapons and say NO, b/c you would look weak and absurd. hence it goes on and on.
milandroid: dont see any point in wasting money in military if they decide to talk for peace instead of launch rockets at civilians
i doubt everydody follows the same logic as yours. you wishfully assume they fear appearing weak?
altho i do agree there’s a greater chance that chinese gov’t would think they lose face if give up military options or so
peijinc: i wuz talkin about israel/palestine and war in general, no one lays down weapons, fear and temptation towards war always there.
milandroid: OFC i kno. #Israel cant lay down b|c hamas targets residents in #sderot. It isn’t at all anything abt fear of appearin weak if 1/2
lay down weapon first 2/2 #Israel #sderot
but look at why hamas doesn’t lay down their weapons. they aim at wiping israeli out of the map. please, can any sensible man 1/2
omit the military opt out when facing such an organization? 2/2
peijinc: yep b/c few shoddy missiles 1400 gazans, both good and bad, had to die–exigency of war? no way. collective pubnishment
milandroid: no one can guarantee no casualties of the innocent. that is the truth of the war. and your logic is, israel is stronger than 1/2
hamas so it has no right to take action against bad guys. 2/2
logically, if you condemn what israel has done, then you’ll have to give us a propose what can be done to save the residents 1/2
in sderot. 2/2
peijinc: Hamas aims at wiping israel off map, but israel has actual power to wipe most of palestine off. thats the difference and the rub
milandroid: not to say if the figure itself is accurate. sounds like you’d stand the life with continuous terror. moreover, most of the 1/2
one 1000 casualties are gunmen 2/2
peijinc: um, how many israelis live in "continual terror"? how many have died? Living in Tel Aviv with a passport to travel…how sad.
its *disproportionate* death, not 0 deaths of innocents. who would realistically aim for that? not even god.
milandroid: Sderot – Population: 19,300 (2007) as i havent mentioned Ashqelon and others. good you talk about proportion.
peijinc: saving the residents of Sderot aint the point, making peace for everybody is the point.
milandroid: i dont kno if hamas’s launching rockets is an action toward peace? are you suggesting talk to hamas while they’re targeting sderot?
peijinc: i’m more scared of the IDF. when i was in Gaza they shot at reporters. i think their guns are more accurate than hamas rockets
milandroid: their missiles are more accuarate. as to say guns, you should know it’s more of a human factor. soldiers have their own fear 1/2
on the battlefield. you can’t say they shoot accurately everytime they do. 2/2
peijinc: i believe most peace talks in history began while both sides are still fighting. unless one side unconditionally surrenders 1st.
i personally dont think that talking to the Israelis is productive either. they talk about peace more than they act on it.
milandroid: i didnt think of historical examples. thank you i would consider that; while i personally dont think talking to hamas would be 1/2
fruitful. Even the PA doesn’t want to live with israel side by side- unlike they used to claim to 2/2
peijinc: my point is that IDF is accurate enuff that if i were palestinian i would be living in "terror" of the snipers as well.
milandroid: i dont understand why IDF would shoot Gazans not in war time! And even b4 wartime IDF told them to temporarily go away while 1/2
they operate just few ppl did 2/2
peijinc: im seeing that a total of 8 israelis in the south died from rocket attacks during 2008. i think less in 2009.
i am saying that for rocket attacks that cause 12 deaths a year they should NOT have killed over 1000 people with bombs or guns.
milandroid: no such thing as proportion imo. israel appears moral if idf kills 8 gazans for hamas kills 8 israelis? no.
as of now IDF just uses drones to attack smuggle tunnels.while hamas fire rockets into southern israel. who knows when it’ll 1/2
cause fatal cases 2/2
peijinc: you have to consider the problem since 1948, not 2001. they are living in intolerable conditions. i lived in Gaza 3 months.
maybe you ought to live in a Gazan refugee camp for awhile. this is the longest standing refugee problem in the world.
you forget the ppl of sderot are immigrants who have at least ‘traveled’. most gazans are refugees stuck their whole lives.
adding insult to injury is the fact that sderot was built on land of former arab village, where there are now no arabs
milandroid: i dont know if you can leterally watch your people live abnormal life;i do know israelis cant
for now no any bit of peace in sight but we cant sit here doing nothing only to see israelis in the south keep suffering
i think i know the way you think as i’ve seen so many ppl- mostly in the Europe- just like you. once israel attacks it’s 1/2
israel’s fault; everytime rockets from gaza just ignore 2/2
peijinc: you don’t know how i think. unlike most ppl in europe i’ve read books on the subject and actually visited west bank & gaza.
u must have missed the 1st time i said "disproportionate". >1000 deaths+blockade? u would scream if that happened to israelis
milandroid: do you think it’s a sensible excuse that few casualties occured so that a gov’t should tolerate those ‘harmless’ rockets threats?
peijinc: ‘ppl like me’ dont ignore rocket attacks–we just wonder if killing lots of ppl is a sensible, sustainable solution to problem
this operation will just fuel more terrorism. you killed the ppl not the ideology. thats a short-term solution at best.
frankly, your "israel fanatic" tag makes me wonder if you are capable of being as critical a thinker as you aspire to be.
basically what you’re say
ing is that since u only care about israeli safety/security killing all those people was OK. no choice!
terrorism is often characterized as ‘the last choice’ for the desperate but you dont condone that do you?
IDF has a checkered history. Humiliation, assassination, its all there. What about Irgun back in 1948? Car bombs and the like
the IDF doesnt target civilians officially, but it has unofficially. but you dont read about that b/c u love israel too much
IDF doesnt target civilians but its history rife with abuses involving civilians. soldiers have done some fucked up things
your unabashed worship of the IDF makes having an objective conversation a bit difficult.
most morality, ethics and justice is based on some sense of proportion but not for you i guess
the problem is that ‘the right to defend’ is smokescreen like it was for the US invading iraq. who defines this right?
why dont you go live in Gaza or the West Bank for awhile? maybe see things from the gunmen/terrorist perspective?
being uncritical, uninterested in history, and fervent about right to defend you would be a perfect citizen in a fascist country
milandroid: 1.operation is the last thing israel would do. but no choice left as every other options dont help. the difference is
idf doesnt target civi llians;hamas brutally does.
ever listened to @tzipi_livni ? Pls bear in mind there’s a big dffrnce between this 2 kinds of casualties
differs in morality. There no such thing as disprotion if ya recgnze their right to defend their ppl
2.i definitely agree we should see the conflict as a whole from 1948. gazans have bad living conditions we alk know.
while i doubt israel holds the majority of the responsibility of that.israel accepted the un resolution and established their
country immediately, arab countries didn’t help found palestine but were busy grabbing the land of the pals’ in the name of
anti_israel. the immigrants travelled to sderot based on their very right. the majority of the world favoured this decision.
arab’s hurling rocks which arafau referred to as only expression of anger is literally against un resolutions
i kno idf even took possession of arab ppl in 1967 war.we condemn these things but hamas consider murderin civilian victory!
what a moral compass. i do care the refugee prob. just question who’s
4.again the refugee prob. what hamas did to improve? we only see hamas using human shield during war. they dont even care its ppl.
5.israel is aware of the catastrophe of its pr b/c the blockade.but still facing terror attack,weapon smuggling
israel has no choice. 6.ok you’re different from some neive europeans. but im afraid you biased. i talk to both israelis and arabs;
read books by proisrael propalestine & neutral authors.tho never visit there i absolutely will. israel w.bank gaza.
the ‘fanatic’ in my bio is no serious. you can’t infer im crazy or blinded. i don’t go there simply b/c i have to finish school
you think i’m not interested in history and emotional. quite the opposite i read history and am self-critical
since you deny israel’s right to defend and turn to depict me like im an extremist or something i guess im sorry
peijinc: i made 2 points: israel has right to defense, but there are limit on what you can do in that defense. there is right and wrong.
2. i have been trying to defend ordinary palestinians, not Hamas. you shouldve seen that by now.
you cant seem to understand the difference b/w a right–and how that right is exercised. or the context in which it is.
you keep thinking that condemning Israel means we somehow support or condone Hamas which is why u repeating samething overnover.
no wonder u think those ppl are naive. you probably didnt understand what they were getting at, or what principles are inherent.
milandroid: ye, you defend palestinian not hamas but it’s pals that elected hamas. otherwise israel wouldnt have been forced to take 1/2
action against hamas thus inevitalbly caused many civillians’ deaths 2/2
you clarify tht the limit on what u can do in tht defense. agree. the primary diverge is the morality of military op itself then?
mentioned sustainable solution.will u come up w one? when u criticize sth u’ve got2 give another option. or isr has no choice sadly
watching your ppl live abnormal life or take down terrorists trying not to hurt the ppl tht elected it. There IS a priority.
There’s priciple stuff. One is no any terrorism is tolerable. I wont walk in terrorists’ shoes as long as they’re anti-humanity
peijinc: no one ever asked you to walk in terrorist shoes? what kind of comment is that
milandroid: you said terrorism is the last choice for desperate ones. and suggested me too look things in gunmen/terrorists perspective
peijinc: sustainable solution requires starting talks, or evacuating ppl from Sderot. these dont involve killing or being killed.
your "israel" has no choice theory–i would be ashamed of saying that to anyone who lost family members in Gaza. do you care?
milandroid: sounds like israel never tries to talk. but i cant persuade myself to talk to someone who tries to kill me. i do care gazans
but i will have to say there’s priority
peijinc: ok, obviously my use of irony is lost on you. let’s just forget it. this isn’t working.
milandroid: sorry i misunderstood you
it’s palestinian families misfortune that they chose terrorist gov’t. or they won’t be like this.
peijinc: that’s the old "they brought it on themselves" argument. i would be ashamed of even saying such a thing.
you like to frame everything as an either/or. is this what you call critical thinking, b/c its not thinking let alone critical.
milandroid: for me critical thinking is self questioning, not to be pro-israeli biased. the either/or thing is the logic that drive my thinking
i also want to learn that why "they brought it on thmslvs" wont stand. i certainly miss some aspects
peijinc: your "they brought it on themselves" argument is a great way justify all kinds of bloodletting, its guilt by association.
milandroid: if they finally have a wise leader tht rcgnze israel and is willing to talk, there wont be violence anymore. isn’t it true?
peijinc: i dont see anything *except* pro-israel in you. i mean why not admit it, its nothing to be ashamed of.
either/or thinking is black and white, dualistic thinking. i suggest trying to see more subtlety or complexity where appropriate
milandroid: i love israel. but want 2b right in logic. isr did many wrong things. but there must be one side that holds the most responsiblity
peijinc: no, that’s not true. Its about specifics: pal
estinian state, israeli security, water rights, human rights, borders, etc etc
milandroid: all these issues can be discussed if only both are willing to. israel is willing to talk w someone who is willing to talk.
as to say the palestine state, it isn’t ever founded only due to other arab states and pals resistance to un resolution. 1/2
absolutely not israel’s fault 2/2
peijinc: you like to parrot the slogans of israeli politicians, don’t you? does that make you feel like you understand things?
haha. that was the most pro-israeli statement i’ve heard from you thus far. the partition is a thorny, thorny issue.
milandroid: whatev you imply, i do follow these opinions. they are logically right. plus the partition issue.
if you dont follow un decision, what should you do? if no rules apply to you, you can do anything
peijinc: its clear to me that you are pro-israeli, that last statement bout partition especially. just admit you’re biased! or read more!
milandroid: i tried to be logically right. and this has nothing to do if i’m pro-israel or not. i won’t ask you are you pro-palestine
from the usual perspective- i always think first about israel- i’m pro-israel. but tht doesnt neccessarily mean i’m biased
peijinc: do me favor. go find 10 palestinians and repeat everything u said 2 me, and ask them if they think you’re biased or not.
this isn’t a matter that can be solved by logic. if you think that you are even more hopeless than i thought
i studied mathematics (including logic) when i was in university. that hasn’t helped me understand anything about this conflict.
milandroid: i need logic b/c there’s gotto be sth to guide me thru all these. what should be done and not.
peijinc: i’ve met people on all sides and followed this issue almost 10 yrs and to me, you appear biased. u say you are self-questioning
milandroid: only have been in this for one year. from you i also learn at least a little. but many of your opinion also appear old to me
peijinc: your opinions appear ancient–b/c they are essentially tribalist rants. Tit for tat, protect the nation, they deserved it, etc.
i’m surprised since you seem to have misconstrued and misunderstood most of my opinions from the getgo. remember "naive european
milandroid: i’ve corrected it long ago. nothing’s new only b/c we believe in it still & no ppl proved it’s wrong, so we keep the same lesson
peijinc: you’ve only been in this 1 year and yet you are confident to make pronouncements about the situation and others’ opinions.我服了你.
Looks like we were both irritated. And as he has better English he made cracks on me throughout the conversation. I somehow figure out my respect and appreciation for IDF can somehow be interpreted or say, distorted by someone else intentionally as ‘unabashed worship’ ! But then what? Still he failed to point out where the heck I was wrong. Some people probably would say that’s the result of seeing things from different perspectives. But there has to be one way to sort out what has to be done, and who is the ultimate one to blame. Forget about all the sarcastic tones, the ending seems hilarious. Truly shocked when I saw simplified Chinese!
Earlier I also went through his other tweets. And to my surprise one read:”i shouldnt have made that donation to the iranian cyberarmy.thought they gonna take down the CIA”. This is simply disgusting. Ashamed to see he was Chinese. Have his LinkedIn profile checked and learned he held an MA of Calif Univ Berkeley. So yes, sometimes America is misfortunate. It always produces MAs that tried to do it bad.